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Ὅτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τοῦ ἐκεῖνου τοῦ Σωκράτους οὐκ οἶδα· γυνὴ γὰρ ἐγώ.
The Greek software is courtesy to our own Slinger: http://www.typegreek.com.
Planning on cramming, y’all? it doesn’t work with Plato…
οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δία, ὦ μαθηταί, you won’t get anything else from me unless you start posting here yourselves. I don’t care if it is κεκαλλιεπημένους λόγους, ὥσπερ οἱ τοῦ Σωκράτους, that you write here, or ἀτεχνῶς τε καὶ εἶκῇ λεγόμενα – just write! Τοῦτο ὑμῶν δέομαι καὶ παρίεμαι, or else ξένως ἑξετε τῆς ἐνθάδε λέξεως.
Intersperse δήπου and δῆθεν throughout· ἐψευσάμην γὰρ ἐγώ about not posting anything else until you do.
Well, in that case, let me ‘share’ some amazing jewish gypsy music and frenzied dancing t’ boot.
This is a ruckus, aka θόρυβος!
I can’t troll my own page! What do you say, denizens of Plato’s reading course?
So – we are experimenting with a new learning strategy that some of you highly praised. It’s a developing project, so let me know your thoughts.
I am looking forward to tomorrow – you are too.
This a list of the phrases I’d like you to insert in your rant. Review the text first. We’ll vote for the best free narrative.
οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον
ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν
μάλιστα δὲ αὐτῶν ἓν ἐθαύμασα τῶν πολλῶν ὧν ἐψεύσαντο
ὅτι χρῆν ὑμᾶς εὐλαβεῖσθαι μὴ ὑπ’ ἐμοῦ εξαπατηθῆτε
τοῦτο μοι ἔδοξεν αὐτῶν ἀναισχυτότατον εἶναι
ὑμεῖς δὲ μοι ἀκούσατε πᾶσαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν
οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δια
ναὶ τὸν κύνα (strong assertion, the dog being invoked)
Clarification: you don’t need to use all the Greek, but the more you insert, the better.
νῦν παν τό homework γέγραφα, πανυ και παντάπασι, διά page twenty. νῦν δήπου κιομήσω. οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δία!! ὑμεῖς δὲ μοι ἀκούσατε πᾶσαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν. πλήρης έιναι δήπου, δε῀ι to blog!!!
ναὶ τὸν κύνα, τοῦτο http://www.typegreek.com is a δεινόν tool! χρὴ δὲ ὑμᾶς εὐλαβεῖσθαι μὴ ὑπ’ αὐτοῦ ἐξαπατηθῆτε, so sneakily it tricks you into mistyping. Did you sleep well after blogging out some of the Greek-induced fullness?
…αὐτὸ δὲ τοῦτο σκοπεῖν καὶ τούτῳ τὸν νοῦν προσέχειν, εἰ δίκαια λέγω ἢ μή.
“If” is a multi-tasker, and I have no coherent explanation as to why it came to be used as an interrogatory conjunction in both English and Greek. Smyth 2671(b) says that the interrogatory use is derived from the conditional (“If thou wilt save me, tell me so”), which may well be the case. The links below contain some further info. I’ll appreciate further discussion on the topic.
So – in the above example, εἰ does not introduce a conditional protasis, but an indirect question of the general type (i.e., expecting a yes-no answer). Section 140 in Hansen & Quinn (chapter 18, pp. 526 sqq.) has a brief intro on those. If you have Smyth, check 2671 (Simple Indirect Questions) and 2675 (Indirect Alternative Questions).
The puzzling part for me is the negation. It implies that λέγω is in fact a subjunctive – a deliberative one, ἴσως? Is that the case or not? Or more properly, “Would that be the case or not?” Help me unfold this one.
Here are the links I mentioned above:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=if
O.E. gif (initial g- in O.E. pronounced with a sound close to Mod.Eng. -y-), from P.Gmc. *ja-ba (cf. O.N. ef, O.Fris. gef, O.H.G. ibu, Ger. ob, Du. of), probably originally from an oblique case of a noun meaning “doubt” (cf. O.H.G. iba, O.N. if “doubt”).
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/if
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gif; akin to Old High German ibu if
Date: before 12th century
1 a : in the event that b : allowing that c : on the assumption that d : on condition that
2 : WHETHER
3 —used as a function word to introduce an exclamation expressing a wish
4 : even though : although perhaps
5 : and perhaps not even —often used with not
— if anything : on the contrary even : perhaps even
οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δία, writing complete, syntactically correct Ἕλλνικῶς sentences is καλεπός for me, γὰρ my τέχνα is οὔπω καλὴ. ὅμως, τυγχάνω ὤν in a class where ἡμεῖς μανθάνομεν the Ἕλλνικῶς language, so ποιέω Rali’s suggestion of inserting Ἕλλνικῶς vocabulary into English sentences. ἀλλά, καίπερ πάνυ easier, καί δὴ καί νῦν, ὤς γε μοι δοκεῖ, καλεπός questions arise when writing “Greeklish”, ὡς ἔπος ειπεῖν (ἤ ἴσοως “Engeek” might ὄντως be a better ὄνομα). μέν, ὄτε writing αὕτη νέα language, πως one must address word order. ἀπλῶς ἀεί following the rules of English feels κακὸς. ἀφ’ οὖ ἐγώ began οὖτος exercise, ἐγώ have wondered – ἐάν ποιέω Greek post-positives, is it permissible ἄρχειν a Greeklish sentence with οὗτοι? και then, ὅπῃ do ἡμεῖς handle gender? μέν English lacks gender, δὲ Greek requires agreement. πᾶς ἄνθρωπος must face this dilemma. καί δὴ καί νῦν, as μαθητοί in Intermediate Greek, ἡμεῖς should not ignore τοιοῦτος details. ἔχει γαρ οὑωσί, there are some issues here. ὑμῶν δέομαι καὶ πασίεμαι to help solve the problems of Greeklish, so πάντας μαθητοί may benefit from its use.
ναὶ μὰ τὸν κύνα, that’s awesome, οὐδὲν ἀλλ’ ἢ δεινότης.
About the word order in Greeklish – δοκεῖ μοι you figured it out, for now. τοῦτο δὲ σου δέομαι καὶ παρίεμαι: don’t start sentences with γάρ, μέν or δέ – just stick them after the word you want to emphasize.
About the οὗτοι – why do you think you can’t start a sentence with it? (Not a rhetorical question, so please explain.)
Some practical advice – try to write/type Greek as much as possible, but also learn how to proofread it. χαλεπός and καλεπός look very similar, but the second conglomerate of letters has not been encountered in the Greek language. I think I know why students so often type χ for κ and vice versa but would like to hear from you first.
The Slinger already addressed the importance of diacritical marks: whoever came up with the idea that those can be ignored doesn’t know what s/he’s talking about. οὗτοι is the nominative masculine plural form of the demonstrative pronoun οὗτος/αὕτη/τοῦτο, while οὔτοι consists of the negative οὐ and the older form of the personal pronoun for the second person singular -τοι. The literal translation of οὔτοι is “not (for your information)…”, a rather emphatic negation: οὔτοι μὰ τὸν Ἀπόλλω ἀνηρ ἐγώ.
One thing though – it is only through practical experience that you’ll come to terms with those little “deviations.” When I say “practical,” I don’t mean just mindlessly copying the forms until you are blue in the face. Add some reflection, and you’ll remember the stuff for life.
The teacher stared menacingly at the classroom. “ναὶ τὸν κύνα,” she said, “you haven’t done your homework! τοῦτο μοι ἔδοξεν αὐτῶν ἀναισχυτότατον εἶναι, namely that I’ve been asking you to do it for weeks!”
Only one student dared to speak up. “Listen, teacher! I am a brilliant expert in ἡ ῥητορική, and will persuade you. σὺ δὲ μοι ἀκούσεις πᾶσαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν. Φέρε δή, let’s see what you produce. A ναυπηγός produces ships. What do you produce?”
“I was warned ὅτι χρῆν με εὐλαβεῖσθαι μὴ ὑπ’ ἐμοῦ ἐξαπατηθῶ. But I will answer. I produce education.”
“But does not a ναυπηγός produce, ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, education as well, when he teaches another ναυπηγός?”
“Yes, ὦ μαθητά, he also produces education.”
“So,” said the student, “you produce education, and the ναυπηγός produces education. You produce the same thing. διὰ τοῦτο, using my precise philosophical logic, I conclude that you are a shipbuilder. And instead of assigning homework, you should be out building ships.”
“μάλιστα δὲ αὐτῶν ἓν θαυμάζω τῶν πολλῶν ὧν ἐψεύσας,” said the teacher.
“What’s that?” asked the student.
“That you said you were brilliant, you idiot!”
Σφενδονήτην γὰρ ἴστε που – οὗτος ἐμὸς ἦν μαθητὴς ἐκ νέου. Καὶ ἴστε δὴ οἷός ἐστι ὁ Σφεν, ὡς σφοδρὸς ἐφ’ ὅτι ὁρμήσειεν….
Totally confused by your use of the optative without ἄν, your use of the preposition ἐπί, and the adjective after ὡς. However, I’m guessing it’s not complimentary…
The ὅτι here is not the conjunction but the indefinite relative pronoun – ὅ τι. So you have ἐπί acting as a normal preposition, in a prepositional phrase, at the start of a relative clause.
The optative without ἄν occurs in past general conditional relative clauses (cf. table on pp. 750-1 in Hansen & Quinn). The past general conditional relative, however, is out of place here – can you tell why?
ὡς with adjectives or adverbs has the same function as the English “how.” Remember that its most basic meaning is “how.”
I’d suggest stop writing out your translations. If you need to, sketch some reminders (e.g., vocab you keep forrgetting, or a grammatical hint). But do not engage in elaborate writeups – they only stall you. And do review what you’ve done so far.
Jason is going to post the terms for the next assignment.
Here are ten phrases from last week’s reading to use in your own “Greeklish” posts:
ὥσπερ οὖν
ἄλλους ταὐτὰ ταῦτα
τοιαύτη τίς ἐστιν
ταῦτα γὰρ ἑωρᾶτε
φλυαρίαν φλυαροῦντα
ὧν ἐγὼ οὐδὲν οὔτε μέγα οὔτε μικρὸν πέρι ἐπαΐω
ἀλλὰ γὰρ ἐμοὶ τούτων
καὶ ἀξιῶ ὑμᾶς ἀλλήλοις διδάσκειν
πολλοὶ δὲ ὑμῶν οἱ τοιτοῦτοί εἰσιν
ἀλλὰ γὰρ οὔτε τούτων οὐδέν ἐστιν
ὥσπερ οὖν I’ve always said, bears – especially those of the Ursus Arctos Horribilis kind – are very heavy. ἀλλὰ γὰρ ἐμοὶ one thing τούτων is the most troubling – that they, according to a reliable source, continue to walk after being shot through the heart. The person who told me this should inform all ἄλλους and tell them ταὐτὰ ταῦτα. Indeed – it would be a bad thing to kill a grizzly and then have her fall dead on you. τοιαύτη τίς ἐστιν the grizzly mom – she attacks like a Medea and Medusa combined. ταῦτα γὰρ ἑωρᾶτε in Youtube videos, and perchance you’ve also seen at least one victim φλυαρίαν φλυαροῦντα about his encounter. ὧν ἐγὼ οὐδὲν οὔτε μέγα οὔτε μικρὸν πέρι ἐπαΐω, but let me tell you this: I am learning a lot from Google, καὶ ἀξιῶ ὑμᾶς ἀλλήλοις διδάσκειν about the difference between grizzlies and kodiaks. πολλοὶ δὲ ὑμῶν οἱ τοιτοῦτοί εἰσιν that I won’t be able to convince you that kodiaks look adorable – you most likely will say that size trumps all, and that since kodiaks stand 10 feet tall on their hinds and 5 on all fours, they must be more fierce than them grizzlies. ἀλλὰ γὰρ οὔτε τούτων οὐδέν ἐστιν – grizzlies rule. So what would be the best strategy in dealing with those horribiles?
ἀζιῶ = ἀξιῶ??
Yes, thanks.
I am so sick of bicyclists in San Francisco who ride on the sidewalks. ὥσπερ οὖν Socrates says in the Crito, we must obey the νόμοι which have nourished and raised us, and the law says it is illegal to ride your bicycle on the sidewalk. And yet we are stuck with the Bicycle Coalition, and so many others, φλυαρίαν φλυαροῦντες, doing nothing to stop their members from abusing τοὺς νόμους. People cruise down the sidewalks on bikes, nearly mowing down the elderly and anyone else who gets in their way. ταῦτα ἑώρακα, with my very own eyes. While I think it worthy for the police to crack down on these scofflaws, ἀξιῶ αὐτοὺς ἀλλήλους καὶ διδάσκειν. But, I am afraid they are not teaching themselves good things, but bad things, and διδάσκοντες ἄλλους ταὐτὰ ταῦτα. I hope I get sympathy (σύν + πάθος) from reader’s of this blog, but I’m afraid πολλοὶ δὲ ὑμῶν οἱ τοιτοῦτοί εἰσιν!
Pas moi, I only ride motorcycles on sidewalks (not even skateboards) and share your resentment against miscreant bicyclists narcissistically clogging our sidewalk thoroughfares. I feel your pain, Brother.
ναὶ τὸν κύνα ἀδελφέ, I hope you hit one of them with your motorcycle!
ἐν σαν’φραντσίσκῳ μὲν, there are many φλυαρίαν φλυαροῦντες, ἐν Οὐκλάνδῃ δὲ they are many more.
I was in a meeting πρόσφατα with some Marketing guys φλυαρίαν φλυαροῦντα. They were discussing things ὧν ἐγὼ οὐδὲν οὔτε μέγα οὔτε μικρὸν πέρι ἐπαΐω. They said ἐν πολλῷ χρόνῳ they could have said ἐν ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ. I said “καὶ ἀξιῶ ὑμᾶς ἀλλήλοις διδάσκειν λεγειν more succinctly and to the point”, as my χρόνος is πολύτιμος. ἀλλὰ γὰρ μάλιστα they listened και would change their behavior. ἀλλὰ γὰρ οὔτε τούτων οὐδέν ἐστιν. In frustration, I asked myself, “πολλοὶ ὑμῶν οἱ τοιτοῦτοί εἰσιν?”
I feel your πάθος. Just had a διάλογον σύν τινι on the Silver and Black pride blog, and it was like talking to a wall…
Chaz Schilens, a hefty WR for the Οὐκλάνδης Πειραταί, aka Raiders, ἐσφάλη (σφάλλω) καὶ ἐσφάτη (σφάττώ/σφάζω) during practice – he’s the ἤκιστος when it comes to China porcelain!
I say, call Burr Leonard sine mora (pardon the Japanese) – ἐκείνη γὰρ οἷή τε τὸν ἄνδρα θεραπεύειν.
We came across a weird word last week in class: αὐτοσχεδιάζω. Rali discussed it a bit, and I did some research on it to learn more about whence it comes.
The definition we’re given is “act or speak offhand, unadvisedly.” Now we can see that the verb is a compound of αὐτός and the verb σχεδιάζω, so I looked up that verb. σχεδιάζω is defined as “to do a thing offhand, act with insufficient care.” It can also mean “to invent stories,” so the spoken element is present for both verbs. I would assume the αὐτός gives it a sort of reflexive component, although the definitions in the lexicon look nearly identical.
There is an adjective, αὐτοσχέδιος, which is used in Homer in the dative to mean “hand-to-hand”, or “in a close fight.” But it can also mean “offhand” or “improvised,” which probably comes from the fact that soldiers fighting hand-to-hand improvise their attacks, as opposed to the coordinated movements of larger bodies of troops. This is also the meaning of σχέδιος as well.
A σχεδία was a raft or float. What ἐπὶ γῆς could be the connection? Well, it’s a raft or float that is build in an improvised fashion. Xerxes famous bridge across the Hellespont was a σχεδία, comprised of rafts lashed together.
σχεδόν is a common adverb that means “almost,” but it also means “close, near.” It’s related to the verb ἔχω, but can you see how? ἔχω has weird principal parts. It’s root is σεχ-. In the present tense the initial sigma is dropped and replaced by a rough breathing, but because the breathing is so close to an aspirate (chi), it drops too. The breathing re-appears in the future (ἕξω), and the sigma re-appears with a zero-grade vowel in the second aorist ἔσχον.
Enough about forms. Here is the progression I have: ἔχω means to have or hold, so the related adverb σχεδόν means “near” because what we hold is near to us. When we fight in hand-to-hand combat, we are fighting near (σχεδόν) to ourselves, so we are σχέδιοι. When we are fighting hand-to-hand, we are improvising our movements, so σχέδιος means “improvised” as well. When we make a verb out of it, σχεδιάζω, it means to improvise, or speak offhandedly.
τοῦτο που οἶμαι τί ἐστίν. ἀλλ᾿ αὐτὸς καὶ αὐτοσχεδιάζω, ὦ ἄνδρες Βερκελεῖοι, καὶ μὴ θορυβήσητε. ἴσως ἡ διδασκάλη, ἥπερ σοφή ἐστι τὴν λέγουσαν σοφίαν, τὸν λὸγον ἐρεῖ κρείττονα ἤ ἐμοῦ.
Or perhaps, she is ἥπερ σοφή ἐστι τὴν ἐρρεθεῖσαν σοφίαν.
αὐτοσχεδιάζει ἡ διδάσκαλος· a pretty good breakdown. When you have someone in hold, you can’t rely on set routines – you have to do the αὐτοσχεδιάζειν according to what your opponent does to you. Set routines are no more than general suggestions.
Sorry about the tardiness, I nearly forgot the phrases from last week.
ἐπεὶ καὶ τοῦτό γέ μοι δοκεῖ καλὸν εἶναι
οἷός τ᾽ ἐστὶν
σφίσιν συνεῖναι χρήματα διδόντας καὶ χάριν προσειδέναι
ὃν ἐγὼ ᾐσθόμην ἐπιδημοῦντα
ἔτυχον γὰρ προσελθὼν ἀνδρὶ ὃς…
ἐστὸν γὰρ αὐτῷ [δύο ὑεῖ]
καλώ τε κἀγαθὼ… τὴν προσήκουσαν ἀρετήν
τίς τῆς τοιαύτης ἀρετῆς… ἐπιστήμων ἐστίν;
πόσου [διδάσκει];
πάνυ γε
ἐγὼ [τὸν Εὔηνον] ἐμακάρισα
εἰ ὡς ἀληθῶς ἔχοι ταύτην τὴν τέχνην…
ἐγὼ γοῦν καὶ αὐτὸς ἐκαλλυνόμην τε καὶ ἡβρυνόμην ἂν εἰ ἠπιστάμην ταῦτα
ὑπολάβοι ἂν οὖν τις ὑμῶν ἴσως
γὰρ δήπου
εἰ μή τι ἔπραττες ἀλλοῖον ἢ οἱ πολλοί
ἵνα μὴ [ἡμεῖς] περὶ [σοῦ] αὐτοσχεδιάζωμεν
The bracketed words are from the original text, but can/should be swapped out depending on context.
Just following up one of Rali’s comments as class was wrapping up on Saturday…
Higashi ashi, nishi ashi.
Nishi ashi, higashi ashi.
East legs, west legs.
West legs, east legs.
_________________________________________________
Back to Greek. Concerning Socrates’s swearing “νὴ τὸν κύνα”, I had made a comment on this in class as to how common this was, and I was able to locate where I had read about this. In “Four Texts on Socrates” (Thomas G. West and Grace Starry West), footnote 32 on page 70 says:
“By the dog” is an oath apparently unique to Socrates. He swears “by the dog”, the Egyptians’ god” at Gorgias 482b; “the dog” may be Anubis, the mediator between the upper and lower world, whose Greek counterpart is Hermes.”
The intermediate Liddell & Scott has this as “the favorite oath of Socrates.”
The dogs get a bad rap in antiquity – maybe you could do a post on that?:)